Robson/ Safechuck lawyers continue their attempt to try these cases in the media. Over the weekend Vince Finaldi took part in a legal radio show at a local LA talk radio station. Robson case was one of the topics discussed at the show. I prepared a transcript of the radio show. This way no fan will need to go to the radio website to listen to the show. Keep in mind that I type the transcript as I listen so it’s not perfect.
In addition to providing the transcript, I also wanted to add some commentary about the statements at the radio show. Therefore I invited MichaelJacksonAllegations and a friend to help me with that. So here we start.
Alan Gurvey: We want to welcome now Vince Finaldi with Manly, Stewart and Finaldi. He is been in the news recently because of a few clients he represents. Importantly he represents two gymnasts who are alleging sexual abuse by a former USA gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar. He also represents Wade Robson. Wade Robson is or was celebrity choreographer worked with Nysnc and Britney Spears. He is alleging that Michael Jackson operated a sophisticated child sexual abuse ring. What’s interesting is that next week we are having Tom Mesereau on the show. Tom actually defended and won the case with Michael Jackson in 2005. I talked to Tom last week on the phone. He was telling me Wade Robson was his key witness and one of the reasons why Jackson was acquitted of charges. First Vince Finaldi welcome to Gurvey’s Law.
Vince Finaldi: Thanks for having me guys.
Alan Gurvey: It is great to have you. Let me ask you, just follow up on that. Let’s talk about Wade Robson first and the Michael Jackson situation and then we’ll talk about Larry Nassar. So give us a little background. I don’t know if you dispute it or not. But the record seems to suggest that back in 2005 Wade Robson did not say anything that would harm Michael Jackson. In fact he was the first witness that really helped him. How did things change now fast forward to 2016?
Vince Finaldi: To set the full record straight he actually testified back in the Chandler case in 1993. That’s the first time he testified on behalf of Mr. Jackson. Wade was only 12 at the time. Mr. Jackson and his entire camp asked him to do it.
Alan Gurvey: Wasn’t there a big settlement in that one which might have hurt Michael Jackson’s reputation?
Kerri Kasem: The 20 million dollar one? Yes
Vince Finaldi: Importantly what happened was Wade did not want to testify. Judge Lance Ito, this is before the OJ case, actually held Wade in contempt as a 12 year old kid. He was going to put him in jail if he didn’t testify. So Michael Jackson’s lawyers met with him. Anthony Pellicano met with him, who we all know about now. They told him exactly what to say. As a 12 year old he already perjured himself because he bought what Michael Jackson told him all along. Look if anyone listens and hears about the way about we love one another which they aren’t going to understand. They are going to put us all in jail. He thought that prophecy was gonna come true. So you fast forward to 2005, he told everyone I don’t want to testify. He ended up getting subpoenaed. Michael Jackson was begging him to do it, begging him to do it. He said you know I’m just gonna go up there and just do the same thing.
Commentary: We need to take a huge break here and examine these claims one by one.
1. Finaldi claims Robson did not want to testify in 1993. Well Joy Robson will probably disagree with that. Long before any grand jury testimony, Wade went on TV to defend Michael. In August, 1993, only a couple of days after the Chandler allegations broke to the public, Wade and his mother Joy Robson were on TV defending Michael (first on a Los Angeles TV station, KNBC then CNN). In an 1995 interview Joy Robson stated that it was Wade who insisted on doing those interviews.
“To this day, the Robson family maintain Michael is innocent. “Michael would hurt himself before he would hurt a child. He didn’t have a childhood himself, so it is important to him to see others having one,” said Joy. It was Wade’s decision to `go public’ on television and proclaim Michael’s innocence. “It was a tough thing to do – especially for an 11-year-old – but we couldn’t stand by and let people believe Michael had been anything but a friend to us,” said Joy, with Wade nodding his approval as he sat in on our interview.” (Source)
Michael was on tour abroad at the time and had not been in the US since the Chandler allegations broke on August 17. Wade now seems to insinuate that somehow those interviews were done under duress and coached by Michael’s people, such as Anthony Pellicano, but according to Wade’s own Fourth Amended Complaint, in actuality the Robsons were previously already interviewed by the police. Moreover, it was Wade’s mother, Joy Robson who called Michael’s personal assistant Norma Staikos after their police interviews and Staikos then put them in contact with Pellicano. Apparently they volunteered to defend Michael. By the way, it is obvious that the Robsons did not say anything incriminating about Michael in those police interviews, since it would have been brought up by the prosecution in 2005 if they had.
It is worth noting that not only Wade testified for the Grand Jury but also his mother, Joy Robson on March 1, 1994. What’s her excuse?
2. Finaldi says “As a 12 year old he already perjured himself” and he continues to explain Robson’s 2005 testimony “He said you know I’m just gonna go up there and just do the same thing.” This reminds me of what Weitzman wrote in Estate’s initial response at Robson case on October 2015. Weitzman wrote “either he is perjuring himself today in an effort to obtain money, or he perjured himself and obstructed justice in a criminal proceeding a decade ago. There is no middle ground between those two positions”. According to his lawyer Robson was like “ well I already lied to the law enforcement once so I’ll just testify at a criminal trial and lie there too”. If you believe Robson lawyers, that statement not only shows that Robson knew that he was lying in 2005 but also how easy it is for him to lie to law enforcement, criminal prosecutors, judge and jury. They can’t think that this is helping his credibility at all. Plus I thought he didn’t realize he was abused until 2013. Finaldi’s statement sounds like Robson lied knowingly and intentionally at 2005 trial.
Alan Gurvey: Don’t people suspect that under those circumstances there is a pay off when people testify? I know with my cases there is a lot of interest whether one side or the other , I always question the interest. I won’t have a witness testify because I know they are not going to be honest because of one reason or another.
Vince Finaldi: You know what I can say number one is, hang tight and watch the press in about 2 - 3 weeks. That’s all I’m going to say about that.
Commentary: Ooh a threat. How nice of Robson lawyers give an advance warning. Kidding aside once again this proves that Robson lawyers want to try this case in the media and they will feed media the information. To me it screams a weak case and desperation.
Alan Gurvey: Wow, are you going to come back?
Kerri Kasem: I have a bit of a problem because I know a few kids that grew up in Michael Jackson’s house, hanging with Michael Jackson. I dated one of them. I’m not going to talk about that. We are very close, still are.
Alan Gurvey: Was it Haim?
Kerri Kasem: No. Haim did not grow up with Michael Jackson. I mean they had some connection but he didn’t grew up with him. Anyway so this children that did hang out with him constantly and even went on the tour bus with him. They have never came forward not one time. In fact they did the opposite. They said he never touched me, that was never the case, this is something that never happened. And if there was a sophisticated ring, something like that, then why the two kids I know personally why wouldn’t they seen something or why wouldn’t something be done to them, why. That’s what I’m feeling. And there is a lot of children that hang out with him. Not one of them except Wade came forward.
Alan Gurvey: James Safechuck.
Vince Finaldi: That’s not true. Numerous kids have come forward.
Alan Gurvey: Yes they have.
Vince Finaldi: As for the ones who received settlement, he paid out. He paid out to Chandler, he paid out to Blanca Francia’s son. Who brought a claim. Who said he was molested and abused. And he paid him $1.5 Million. Then we have James Safechuck who has come forward. Wade Robson has come forward. There has been other ones that has come forward as well. So that’s not true. That no one else came forward. The second point is because someone is a pedophile doesn’t mean they will sexually abuse every single boy or girl they come in contact. They still pick and choose the ones they abuse. It is called the grooming process. Through the grooming process they discern which one they believe will keep quiet, which one will be more right for the abuse. And importantly which one they are more attracted to. So the sophisticated ring, not necessarily a ring. I didn’t call it a ring. I said a child abuse procurement machine. The apparatus assisted him in the grooming process by helping him to isolate the kids he wanted. He would say bring this one back to my room. I want to talk to this one and take the parents here and do something with them. That’s kinda how it worked.
Commentary: Again 2 points to make here
1. Despite all that time and releasing a open letter to the media and stating they read multiple media records of multiple monetary and non monetary settlements paid to the little boys , they can only come up with 2 settlements and the other already known claims. So where are these “dozens of little boys”?
2. The “Grooming process” - Is Finaldi aware of Robson’s own claims about the abuse? The Robsons met Michael after the dance competition in Australia. According to Joy Robson’s testimony in 2005, the meeting happened at behind the stage with a lot of other people. She testified “It was a meet-and-greet situation” She continued with saying the meeting didn’t have a lot of substance to it. She testified it was a “How are you? It’s a pleasure to meet you,” type of thing.” It doesn’t sound like any grooming could have taken place then. Robson claims he also spent a few hours with Michael at his hotel suite where his mother was also present. They didn’t form any friendship at that time. So that means Michael did not "pick and choose" Robson then. Robson family came to United States 2 years later for unrelated reason. Michael wasn’t aware of it. Robson’s mother called Norma Staikos who arranged them to meet with Michael at his studio. Michael then invited the family to Neverland for the weekend. According to Wade’s complaint Wade and his sister slept with Michael the first night at Neverland and no abuse happened. The second night only Wade slept with Michael and first abuse happened. So by the time Robson claims his abuse started, he only interacted with Michael for a total of 3 days at maximum. That’s way too quick for any meaningful grooming to happen.
Alan Gurvey: (Talking about magicians/musicians etc. inviting good looking women back to their rooms)
Alan Gurvey: I want to ask you a little bit about the defendants in this case. MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures. So people want to know from a legal perspective, it is a different theory. Because Michael Jackson obviously isn’t alive. There is an Estate that could be sued. But tell us the theory of the defendants. Why these defendants?
Vince Finaldi: I’ll be more than happy to. So initially the lawsuit was against the Estate which is like you are suing Michael Jackson personally. And MJJ Productions which was. It’s a loan out corporation. Anytime you have a big star, entertainer, actor, you never work with them directly. They protect themselves from personal liability by using by what is called a loan out corporation. So that’s all MJJ Productions was. You want to hire Michael Jackson, you hire MJJ Productions who employs Michael Jackson and that’s how it works. Protects him from personal liability. Okay? So the Estate was let out on statute of limitations grounds. Because statute of limitations for Estate starts to run from the moment you know that the person has died. Wade didn’t file within a reasonable amount of time after learning that Michael had died. As to the companies, the statute of limitations is different. It is no different than suing a church entity for example. A church employs a child to work as a pallbearer, also employs the priest. Priest abuses the child. Therefore if they had a reason to know that this guy was dangerous they can incur liability. It’s no different than what happened here.
1. And now MJJ Productions is a loan out corporation. Something they never ever mentioned in their proposed 4th amended complaint. In the complaint MJJ Productions was a company with “youth programs”. They claimed Michael was hired to mentor and train minors in entertainment industry. Which one is it? Loan out corporation requires a properly constructed employment agreement between Michael and the MJ companies. Even if there is such employment agreement and Michael was an employee of MJ Companies, it still doesn’t solve the control issue. Their complaint is still accusing Michael the boss of not controlling Michael the employee.
2. This kind of lawsuit is quite different than suing a church entity IMO. In a church entity the church has control over the priests hiring, retention and supervision. As expressed in Estate’s opposition document this is not possible in this instance. Michael Jackson formed the companies and he held 100% shares at all times. Even if he was hired as an employee as well and even though there was a Board of Directors, none of it gave the MJ Companies any control over Michael. Michael as the 100% shareholder had all the power.
Alan Gurvey: (introduction) Now Vince before the break we were talking about the lawsuit with Wade Robson suing MJJ Productions and MJJ Ventures. Do you believe that the responsibility or liability assuming it is successful will be watered down because the theory in law is that these companies did not actually did it but they just allowed or procured or they facilitated?
Vince Finaldi: Well what’s important to understand that Wade was employed by MJJ Productions. He was their employee. He had an employment contract. He was employed to work on music videos. Michael Jackson was his mentor, coach, and teacher. We got all the records. Michael Jackson sponsored his immigration here to the United States. So that he could work. Michael Jackson signed notarized documents on the penalty of perjury saying that you know Wade was a talented kid, he was one of the most talented dancers in Australia, and he was coming here to improve Michael Jackson’s performances. Because he actually danced with him on stage. So it’s no question that he was an employee. And Michael Jackson was sleeping in bed with him at the time. So if you look at the sexual harassment scenario. A boss sleeping in bed with his own employee, does things with him, no one would question that the business would incur liability. It is the same theory.
Commentary: Michael Jackson was an employee and now he is back again being the boss.
(back and forth about workers compensation claim)
Vince Finaldi: There is one more point I want to get to. I understand that you are having Mr. Mesereau on and he has gone on numerous different outlets saying how Wade is lying, he is not telling the truth. I extend an open invitation to debate Mr. Mesereau on the issue. Any time, any location he chooses. I’ll even sweeten the pot. If someone thinks I did a worse job than he did, then I’ll offer $10,000 to the charity of his choice. But he’s got to do the same if I get the better of him. A charity of my choice.
Commentary: Who is this “someone” that would determine who won?
Alan Gurvey: We will facilitate it right here on this show. You both come down. Tom is local, you are kind of local. We will have that debate. Because I’ll tell you Tom is not presently involved in this case and I’m sure he will be happy to discuss.
Vince Finaldi: I know all about what his trial team did in 2005 and how they interacted with Wade and his family and how they coached his testimony. So I’ll be more than happy to talk with him on live radio about it.
Commentary: So Finaldi claims that Thomas Mesereau “coached” Wade Robson’s testimony in 2005. Previously in this interview Finaldi also claimed that Wade did not want to testify in 2005. These are interesting claims to make when Wade is on the record defending Michael during that 2003-2005 period as well, way before Mesereau was even on the case, let alone any opportunity for him to “coach” him.
October 3, 2003 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCOiY0r0hRs
November 26, 2003 - (Eight days after Gavin Arvizo’s allegations broke to the public.) (Source)
Aussie Star Tells of Sharing Jackson's Bed
AUSTRALIAN Wade Robson is one of the hottest young talents in Hollywood and yesterday he revealed he had as a child shared a bed with Michael Jackson. Brisbane-born Robson, who has a hit TV show in the US and a three-movie directing deal with Disney, broke his silence about the years he spent visiting Jackson at Neverland Ranch in California.
He is now 21 and shadowed by his friendship with the superstar, which began at age five. But Robson says it was an innocent relationship that never involved any sort of abuse. "I never had that experience and I hope that it never happened to anybody else," he said... Asked if he had ever slept in Jackson's bed, Robson said: "Yeah, but nothing strange happened."
Robson said he didn't think it was "weird" that a grown man would share the same bed as a child. "Everything in life is so complex. He just wanted something around that was simple -- to hang with kids," he said. "The biggest thing you have to understand is that he has no concept of reality. "He has been a superstar since he was five years old. "I mean, what concept does he have of what society thinks is right?"
Robson said he no longer saw Jackson as often as he did as a child - Maybe I will talk to him every six months -- but he will always remain a friend. "I will always support him and whatever happens is supposed to happen -- I hope it works for him" he said. "It is sad to see".
June 14, 2005 - Wade and his family were so forced to testify and they were so “coached” in 2005 that, according to his mother, when the “not guilty” verdict came in this is how they reacted. (The article is dated one day after the verdict.) (Source)
"We just feel so vindicated right across the board,'' said Joy Robson, who watched the verdict live on TV from her LA home.
"We were crying and screaming and crying and screaming.''
The Robson family has kept in close contact with Jackson during the trial, with Joy last speaking to him when the defence and prosecution rested their cases. "He's always reasonably optimistic,'' she said. "He has a lot of faith and relies a lot on his faith. "He did ask me to pray for him. We all believed ultimately the truth would come out.''
Alan Gurvey: I’m going to try my best to facilitate it. In one minute or less, can you tell us what is the future on Wade Robson case? Where do you see it going?
Vince Finaldi: Well the Wade Robson case we are preparing for a trial. That’s his most important concern is to let the world know the true facts that occurred behind the scenes and what really happened. Because the whole record that’s been written on Michael Jackson is largely false. And it’s been scrubbed and cleaned over the years since his passage. You go on his Wikipedia page, it doesn’t say a single thing about child sexual abuse. That’s the most important thing. Looking forward to that.
Commentary: It’s not exactly correct that they are preparing for a trial. They are attempting to amend their complaint first.
I’ll have to be honest that we laughed and laughed to the mention of Wikipedia. It’s always amusing when lawyers cite Wikipedia. What made it even more funnier that Finaldi’s claim that Michael’s Wikipedia page doesn’t say a single thing about sexual abuse is absolutely false. You can see a screenshot below. If you go to the Wikipedia page you would see that there is a quite detailed write up about the both 1993 and 2005 sexual abuse allegations. I’ll give you some statistics. The main “Michael Jackson” wikipedia page, has 870 words talking about the 1993, 2005 allegations. The main page also includes a mention of Wade Robson’s claims/lawsuit against Michael Jackson. There are also two separate pages details the 1993 and 2005 sexual abuse allegations against Michael. The “1993 Sexual Abuse Accusations against Michael Jackson” is a 8420 word write up and even includes Robson and Safechuck accusations. “Trial of Michael Jackson” page has 9755 words and again include a mention of both Robson and Safechuck allegations. If you are following the math, that’s almost 20,000 word write up about the allegations on Wikipedia. I don’t know what’s sadder. That Finaldi lied about Wikipedia, something so easy to check, or that he looked but couldn’t see the 20,000 words about abuse allegations.
Alan Gurvey: Listen to the show next week. Tom Mesereau will address this issue.
Commentary: To be honest, we wish that Tom Mesereau doesn’t take the bait of Robson lawyers. Especially based on Finaldi’s claims about 2005 trial team and that he accused Mesereau of “coaching” Robson. Although Mesereau might not be involved in this case as a lawyer, he will probably be a witness about his interactions with Robson during 2005 trial - if it comes to that point. However knowing Mesereau, most probably he wouldn’t shy away from the debate.
Some final thoughts: The radio seems like a local show with very few listeners. This interview shows yet another obvious attempt by Finaldi to get more publicity this case, hoping that it would help them with a bad press leverage against the Estate. Robson’s attorneys already had three different failed attempts to get the media attention since last July with leaking their letters and complaints to the media with their press releases. This one would be their fourth attempt.
Throughout the interview Alan Gurvey, an attorney in a firm that specializes in workers’ compensation law, didn't challenge Finaldi with the clear legal issues of the case and also agrees with him on claims Finaldi was not able to prove in court (that ‘numerous’ accusers who came forward). It looks like the research that was done before the interview was very poor. At one point host Kerri Kasem did share her personal connection to two men who grew up with Michael Jackson and insist they weren’t abused, which seems to be the only time Finaldi was briefly challenged with a contradicting fact.